Comments on Abortion from a Facebook Thread

Brad
ABORTION: as far as the whole abortion thing goes, anyone opposed to it should LOOK AT HISTORY. Outlawing abortion does not stop it, it means only the rich have access to doctors in other countries, where it's legal to perform, and that the poor do it with coat hangers in back alleys. I don't think anyone has the right to tell someone else WHAT TO DO WITH THEIR BODY. I don't tell anyone how to worship god, so please don't tell other people what to do with their bodies. Until the Pro-Life people set up adequate child care for EVERYONE, equal education for EVERYONE, counseling for the poor and access to healthcare for the poor, than don't force them to bring UNWANTED CHILDREN INTO THIS WORLD. If you like women dying from infections and botched abortions, make it illegal again.
Health care bill: as I've said before in other places, if the insurance companies are for the bill, it means we're going to get screwed. I don't like the bill as it stands, for that reason. We need single payer and until that happens, we are living in a second class nation.It's a blow against freedom to force people to think one way and not the other. Reinforcing the right to make up you're own mind is reinforcing freedom of thought: the right to choose.

John
Well said!! Now lets all go blow up a planned parenthood clinic in the name of god!!!


Brad
Morality is forced on others every day. I think that there's not enough personal responsibility taken in this world today, but do we really need to add tens of thousands of unwanted children sucking up social service monies every year? It's a compromise, and not one I take lightly when I stand for Pro-Choice. I find it personally distasteful that abortion is used as a birth control option, but I find tens of thousands unwanted children being brought into this world an even worse option. I'd rather not have more unwanted children in the world, we have too many already.

James
I agree, we should be allowed one day a year to kill all the worthless eaters! The homeless, the incureably insane, the career criminals... I believe that this is a choice that is best for society. Reinforcing the right to make up you're own mind is reinforcing freedom of thought: the right to choose.

John
I like James' idea. That would motivate people to be better contributors to society. But we just need to add one more group. Boy Bands!!!

James
Right on John! Include the boy bands! Oh here we go .... add the leadership of the Demorats and the Repuglicrumbs!

Olivia
Y'all are a mess!


Diana
Brad way to go on starting this discussing now if we could all go to congress and tell them how we feel and that we are the ones that put them in office and that they DO work for us maybe they would do what the people want instead of the lobbyist, and the oil company's they need to remember these words " We the people"

Jodi
Banning abortion is a-ok with me, so long as in addition to the ban, there are permanent and fully comprehensive services to deal with the increased population. Like the non-exhaustive list Brad gave before. It seems like the pro-lifers care about the babies until birth-3 months, and then don't care about the social services being cut for said babies or their mothers. And heaven forbid there is any comprehensive sex education funded that would prevent the pregnancies in the first place. I would like to see more solutions offered by the pro-lifers. Sure, get rid of abortion.. and then? What is going to be done with the extra millions of mouths to feed, the drain on an already strained system, schools maxed out, whatever? I just never see anything addressing the "after" part of banning abortion. Just a blanket prohibition, with none of the backlash of the prohibition addressed.
I appreciate the stance, but would like it to become a more practical than ideological one when people try to use it to make laws. I don't like babies being killed, but I'm realistic enough to know that stopping that presents a host of other problems no one on that side seems willing to care much about or offer ideas on.

Nicholas
you have quite a variety of friends, Brad! As far as the "birth control" argument goes, you'd have to be clinically insane to use abortion as such. It's one of the most emotionally scarring actions any woman can take. And anyways, Prohibition doesn't work. Prohibition doesn't work, and furthermore, PROHIBITION DOESN'T WORK! If you want to stop abortions, be a teacher. be a good parent, be a mentor, foster parent, good neighbor and good friend. Or get a vasectomy. It's the most effective form of birth control, and you pro-lifers don't like gray areas, do you?

How can you be pro-life if you leave a chance for an unwanted pregnancy to occur on your watch? Put your money where your balls are.
Hell, shouldn't all of us guys get one anyway? Who here thinks the human race should break the 7 billion mark? I sure hope the health care bill covers vasectomies.

Brad
Nick, I have I like to expose my brain to alternate EVERYTHING. My criteria for adding facebook friends is easy. I know you, I know someone you know, you have an interesting picture, or I just feel like adding you for the hell of it. It sure has made it interesting. I've met some really cool/different people on here, some of whom I'm diametrically opposed to politically. I like all of them, "friend or foe," because, for the most part, everyone has some valid points to make.
Yesterday at 2:37pm

Diana
thank you Brad


James
Based on the emails I have received people have missed the point I have made, so let me simplify it. I am Pro-Choice. It is a right. So is freedom of the press, the right to bear arms, and ability to drink alcohol. It is NOT the responsibility of the government to buy me a newspaper, a gun to buy me a newspaper, a gun or a drink. A right is something a citizen may personally choose to act upon, not is something they are required to do. And the government's job is to protect rights, not enforce or provide for. Read both John Adam and Thomas Jefferson.

PS: The house bill would cover vasectomies (in part)

PPS: and if you do support the ability to provide low cost abortions, write a check to Planned Parenthood. Don't use the excuse that you are a poor student. Send the check and then go to a bar. Tell people you aren't having a drink because you gave your beer money to Planned Parenthood, so you have none to drink on. You will have more drinks bought for you than you donated, and you may get a date too. Women go for men that support women's rights.


Nicholas
James, I like your thinking!

James
But not a single penny of federal money should be used to cover abortions!

Brad
Valid points, James, but I still think it's cheaper to provide abortions then it is take care of unwanted children. Cheaper monetarily, and as a cost to society. Do we really need more socially misfit kids who can grow up into criminals, that we then have to pay to keep in jail? As for vasectomies, do the stupid people get those, or the smart people who have valid reasoning skills?

Nicholas
Anyone who wants to have a future for anyone. No mandates, of course. I think breeding at this time, when 40,000 children die of malnutrition a day, when the current population is already killing the planet plenty fast enough, is completely irresponsible in every manner. Smart people with valid reasoning skills will realize it's a fool's bet to expect your progeny to do anything but consume more, and that the responsibility to change things before it's too late falls squarely on their shoulders.
It's like James said. you can't force morality on others. We can't expect our children to be the next Ghandi, WE have to BE the next Ghandi.


Brad
See, that's the fly in the ointment. We force morality on others every day. Why is the drinking age 21 in the U.S., but for most of the world, it's 18? This was done, supposedly, to stop young people from dying in car crashes. Yet, at 18, they can join the armed forces and kill other humans. I consider that xxxxed up. Instead of legislating problems and trying to control actions with laws, we COULD increase funding for pre-school through college and just MAKE SMARTER PEOPLE. That makes more sense to me, yet we don't because Americans want a magic pill to solve their problems. We want short term solutions to long term problems and we can't seem to get that IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY. Ok, not the clearest argument, but the coffee is making me spastic and I've been doing homework since 10am.

Lisa
I just love it whan people start talking about the woman's right to abort....has anyone ever asked the baby for their opinion?

Brad
No, frankly, I don't support the right of fetuses to be born into a world that doesn't want them. Life is a crapshoot, and that's just the way it is. Life IS NOT FAIR, even to the unborn FETUSES. I'm just wondering, what's more unfair. Being an unborn FETUS who doesn't get born and is never truly cognizant of life, or being born to a mother who doesn't want you, in a world that doesn't want you, that wishes you were dead?

Lisa
I'm sorry that you feel that way.. there are just coule prolebms with your arguement.... I have never heard any woman say " I'm going to have a fetus" IT IS A BABY..I know far more women willing to adopt these "unwanted" children than I know women who have had abortions.Your remaks are quiet offensive ,especially to myself(and millions of others) ... Read Morewho had addopted one of those fetus'.Being that the nervous system is the first thing formed in a newly concieved child ~thet ARE cognizanyt of pain >>>just watch a video /utrasound of an abotion....the poor baby tries to move away as his tiny limbs are sucked of his body....Maybe we should try this on adults that think it's OK.

I'm sorry that you feel that way.. there are just coule problems with your argument.... I have never heard any woman say " I'm going to have a fetus" IT IS A BABY.. I know far more women willing to adopt these "unwanted" children than I know women who have had abortions. Your remaks are quite offensive ,especially to myself (and millions of others) who had adopted one of those fetus'. Being that the nervous system is the first thing formed in a newly conceived child ~they ARE cognizant of pain >>>just watch a video /utrasound of an abortion....the poor baby tries to move away as his tiny limbs are sucked of his body....Maybe we should try this on adults that think it's OK.

Brad
Well, for one thing, we're not killing babies 3 days before they're due. The majority of abortions occur in the first trimester. (And, we do do this to adults, it's called capital punishment. And the people who suffer this usually came from families that, for the most part, didn't want them as children, abused them, and didn't have the proper upbringing and social net to save them.) Also, while not fully informed on all aspects of this issue, I am sure of one thing. We have too many children that go unadopted now. Do we really need more people on this planet when we can't take care of the ones already here? Why don't we solve the problems first, then bring more people into this world. And another thing, by cognizant, I don't mean aware of pain. Fish are aware of pain, trees are aware of pain, cows are aware of pain. Are you going to stop using wood now? Or eating fish?

Peggy
I agree Lisa. The choice comes before conception (have sex or not). I think it is always interesting to hear the abortion argument from the mans standpoint. What if all men under a certain income and education level were required to have a vasectomy, would we need to have abortions? Some of the arguments made previously sound like only low income women who can't afford babies get abortions. Why is it the women we look at here??? It does take two and by doing it this way, no babies die. What ever happened to personal responsibility???

Ilene
Just a thought....How many women do you think would opt for abortion if it included mutilation of their genitalia to the point that they could never enjoy sex again? Hmmm...just something to ponder....

Brad
Nothing I'm saying here hasn't been said by a woman already. Your point of view seems rather uninformed and non-empathetic. I grew up in a house where my mom celebrated Roe vs. Wade and she kept fighting for womens rights until she died, all while she was making less money than a man for doing the same job. Did you read all of this thread? Because, historically, the rich were never affected by illegal abortions, they just sent their children to Europe where it was legal. I already mentioned personal responsibility, also. About the vasectomy: that's funny, that's the birth control that we, America, support in third world countries. Lower caste males in India are paid $5 or given a cheap item such as a transistor radio to get a vasectomy. (We should do that here! Except, I want a new car. Hey, I'm American, I'm not cheap like some "untouchable" lower caste Indian.) And the reason we look at the woman, and not the man, is because IT'S HER BODY, not his or anyone else's. The final decision should be up to her. Not me. Not you. Her.

Lisa
Brad, again there are several untruths in what you have written. While I will agree that you have right to your opinion, I also need to make you sure that folks with your way of thinking have the facts.
#1 While many (not most )abortions are preformed 1st trimester. Some women ARE exercising their 'right' 3 days prior to birth.Its called partial birth abortion~I'm sure you hvae heard of it.
#2. Have you ever looked at the time lines to adopt a newborn baby? There are not enough babies to go around,many families wait YEARS to get a baby. That's one reason why we go to other countries.
#3 Yes we do have Capital Punishment...for people that have commited heinous crimes....PLEASE tell me what the baby has done wrong......also, an equally important idea to think about :Capital punishment is NOT painful,it is done in a sterile, controlled enviornment,new needles are used for the injection as to not spread disease (that seems like a mute point) Criminals are put to death after years of trials and chances .Abortion is done because some woman decided it was not convenient to have a baby (this is the #1 reason for abortion)
#4.Trees do not feel pain-Babies do.As far as the fish argument ,they were given to us by God for food (I'm sure that opens up a whole new arguement for you)
#5 .It is not a rich/poor issue. It is a matter of taking responsibiliy for your actions,something no one wants to do anymore.


LeahDeVyldere:
Interesting thread. I have heard it all before, but maybe not to this degree. Am I to understand that you gentlemen actually support government funding of not only abortion, but the killing of anyone considered unwanted?
Abortion is the only instance I can think of where the identity of something or someone depends on its method of destruction, or perhaps its location (in or out of the uterus). Is it a fetus because it is doomed to premature death? Scott Peterson was accused of a double murder because his son was a wanted child. If we are honest, this is ridiculous!
How many unwanted children have become amazing human beings, capable of not only changing the world for good, but contributing to those too selfish to understand the value of life? If you believe in human rights, then I don't see how you can decide which people have value in the world and which do not. Isn't this worse than war?? In the past, it was considered courageous to protect the lives of children. Now, we are reduced to "Screw anyone else's rights..what's in it for me?"
Have you studied psychology and social justice? Do you know that sociopaths such as Hitler and Jeffrey Dahlmer have the highest "self -esteem"... I guess they were valuable and wanted. Kip Kinkle also grew up very wanted and educated by upper middle class parents who were both teachers. Maybe you don't consider their actions (systematically killing others)wrong or unwise, since legislating morality is inappropriate. And I guess the desired result is achieved...less people on the planet!
Your assumptions against those born in poverty are laughable. I doubt you would walk up to your gas station attendant or waiter and tell him his life is worthless, that he should end it all. Why not? Because I hope you would respect his right to make something of himself, regardless of the fact that he currently makes minimum wage.Or maybe he wants to make minimum wage all his life. Isn't that his right??
Reducing the number of people on the planet will not make sure that the ones here will be wise...or even fed. People are not starving because of lack of humanitarian aid. They are suffering because of incredibly foolish and selfish leadership. Look at the last tsunami in Indonesia for proof. The world stood ready to end the suffering of thousands and their government prevented this.
In fact, the governments in question sound a bit like you two, negating the value of human rights, the responsibility of each human for their own sexuality, and flaunting your freedom to do so.
Ironically, I am raising children who are well-educated and value all rights, including those of the unborn. Though I have many, they are all wanted. Therefore, I guess I'm okay to not kill them. Just in case, I hope you don't mind if I don't introduce them to you.
How can anyone pretend to be for human rights if they arbitrarily deny rights to some while insuring those of others? Legislating morality is something every law does, by the way, and I don't think anyone here is advocating a world without laws. The key to laws, as I understand them, is to balance the rights of individuals.
I have heard this kind of double thinking before. When we did not want to honor the right of native Americans, we called them "savages" and took their land. It was an excuse for selfishness and potential wealth for those in power. When we wanted slaves to run rich plantations, we imported African people and "owned" them. Those who did this denied the clear proof that these were not unfeeling animals or savages. They were people. Our populace eventually admitted this and gave them the rights they deserved.
In fact this particular thinking is common everywhere in the world that genocide breaks out. There are seemingly not enough resources... someone is inhuman and undesirable so they do not deserve to live. To Hitler, it was the Jews who were less than human and in the way of the greater good. Your arguments are not new. So if we call some babies "fetuses" we can kill them without conscience??
So the question is whether we are or are not endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights, among them life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness... If, as I suspect, you have trouble with this statement, it is perhaps the part about the Creator? You have no reason to fight for the rights of anyone but those you deem worthy. Congratulations, but these beliefs may put you on a slippery slope!